Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

I feel that Sin came into this world because truth was made known .. without this truth ( knowledge of what was right or true ) man would never have known about sin... ( just as the bible states ).


i agree Aurora
in all things we see an opposition
hot and cold, light and dark, right and wrong, north and south
without darkness would we recognise light
without sin would we recognise righteousness

mankind need to experience both to understand either.
the book of mormon talks extensively of this and relates that reasoning to the fall of Adam and the need for it to happen to allow man freedom of choice.

elihu

yes donbodo--death has been dealt with and thanks to Jesus Christ we have an avenue for joy but death is still a hard and bitter blow. My mother is 70 years old now with alzeheimers and there's nothing 'natural' about what is going on there--it is so sad to see her slipping away a bit more all the time--she is sad too--on the days she remembers enough to feel that way :( . My father died suddenly when only 44--he fell ill after work one day and was gone within an hour--I was a looong time in grief. I miss him still. It was a pain unlike any other at the time. It can't be described as a naturally occuring event--at least I can't relate to it that way. Things like this make it a hard thing to look at death as 'natural'--even calling it inevitable doesn't make it 'natural'....interestingly enough it is said humans are the only ones to grieve the way we do and worry about death the way we do--I have worked in hospitals and even those who feel they are ready for death have a hard hard time letting go at the end on many many occasions...it is hard for me to view this as natural--easy for me to view it as unnatural and go with I Cor. 15:26--''the last enemy--death'' and even now I prepare my heart for the blow when my mother is gone--it just doesn't feel like a natural thing to endure...but that is just me donbodo--I know you feel differently...:love:

wow this sounds like a new religion to me

It can be said that death is natural... it is not... "the patient died of natural causes"... bull-pucky... he died because his fore-bear was cursed to death and a cursed father cannot give everlasting life to children because he does not possess it. He did give us a dying existence... many die everyday...one here in my neighborhood was born last Saturday and was dead in 12 hours... this baby was not evil in its deed (it had none)... but it was cursed before it was born.... over 6,000 years before it was born.

it is natural for fallen cursed beings to die because they (humanity in Adam) have been cursed to death. Read your Bible... "In the day ye eat of it, dying thou shalt die".. had he never sinned he'd be here to disprove this presentation. He was promised life based on obedience.

Cain and Abel show how quick the "change" came to humanity... second gereration was degenerate! Long lives still followed until after the flood, where they quickly fell to todays numbers.

The Bible shows eventually the "curse" will be removed (Rev 22:1-3) and everlasting life it the promised reward to all who will come forth in the resurrection and serve Him in obedience.

Humans were not created to eventually become spirit beings... they were created to inhabit the earth eternally... there is a terrestrial body and there is a celestial body... you cannot posses them both at the same time.

Jesus does not have a spirit driven human body... Jesus laid down his flesh (including His life and His humanity) as the Ransom price... if He took it back up in His resurrection he then unpaid the whole thing. He is a Spirit... we know him no longer according to the Flesh... He disapated into thin air behind locked doors in the upper room... He wafted off into the clouds never to be seen again at Pentacost. This was a bit of an aparition.... look up the words "being seen" from Acts 1:3 in your lexicons...

Moses was a type of Jesus as deliverer... most of the events of Jesus' life were typed by those in Moses life... Moses' body was taken at his death and hid by angels so men would not worship it. Jesus' flesh was dead but perfect and curse-less, therefore it would not corrupt... can you imagine what folks would have done with his body... it was not raised to life... He laid it down in death as the price for Adam's sin. Put to death a living soul (fleshly being) ... raised a quickened (living) spirit (being)... He is not mortal or fleshly... He is a Divine Spirit Being.. partaker of God's very nature...

Hi Aurora

Re: "DID Jesus offer up His life for the natural beastlike creature to prolong His natural life or did He open up a way for us to reach a higher ( heavenly or spiritual ) existence ..."

Are you referring to a human creation...it seems so.

1 Timothy 2:5..."...Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all"

Acts 10:34...“For a certainty I perceive that God is not partial, but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him."

What scriptural basis do you think of when teaching that YHWH created humans before Adam, Aurora?

Christian love,

gogh

Hi Wolfie. What you describe is sickness and its results. I do not think we were meant to be sick. On the contrary, I think we were meant to live out a full and healthy life, reaching our full measure of days in happiness, and then falling asleep peacefully in death. Then, in the twinkling of an eye, we are raised to spirit life to be with God.

It is interesting that people can accept the death of their loved ones if they say to themselves that death is unnatural, but they can't accept the death of their loved ones if they think death is natural. I don't get that.

Just like it is hard to say goodbye to loved ones when you go on a long trip and know you won't see them for a while.

Hi Jonalfred. Looks like you're coming in on the tail end of the conversation. Check out previous posts for discussion of the views you express. By the way, the only thing that is cursed in Gen 3 is the ground. You do not provide scriptural citations for most of your assertions, so I am unable to see how you came to your conclusions.

well donbodo--we seem to be talking in circles and--''falling peacefully asleep'' in death is a nice thought (as far as death goes ) and who lives out their ''full measure of days in happiness'' -- not the reality for too many in either circumstance... I worked in a nursing home also years ago and that is a life altering experience for sure....to be with loved ones who either grow old and get sick and die or to experience the sudden death of a infant as we did with my sister's baby is ALL unnatural--perhaps you have never experienced any of that. :( I still would wonder why Donbodo if what you 'think' were to be true then why we go through this--wouldn't it be so much kinder and easier just to have made everyone angels in the first place if that is and always was the ultimate goal? ..:hibye:

well donbodo--we seem to be talking in circles and--''falling peacefully asleep'' in death is a nice thought (as far as death goes ) and who lives out their ''full measure of days in happiness''

i agree with you wolfie that death in this system of things is horrid and is caused by Satan
"the manslayer"

however i am not so sure that Donbodo is so way off the mark when it comes to what he says regarding death that is natural

a scripture that i previously posted has made me wonder:

"for here i am creating a new heavens and a new earth and the former things will not be called to mind, neither will they come up into the heart
but exult you people and be joyfull forever
For here i am creating Jerusalem a cause for joyfulness and her people a cause for exultation
And i will be joyfull in Jerusalem and exult in my people and no more will there be heard in her the sound of weeping or the sound of a plaintive cry.

"no more will there come to be a suckling a few days old from that place, neither an old man that does not fulfill his days
for one will die as a mere boy although a hundred years of age
and as for the sinner although a hundred years of age he will have evil called down upon him"

Isaiah 65:17-20

I most certainly have. But again, you are grouping all the horrible conditions of sickness in with death. I do not accept all of those things as right. I don't accept having to live in a nursing home, having to see an infant die, having to get sick...any of that.

Let me ask you this, wolfie. Do you believe in a heavenly hope for anybody? If so, why do you think God didn't make those people to live in heaven in the first place? Your answer to this question is probably the same or similar to my answer to your question.

Hi there donbodo ... :hibye:

Well, I have been thinking :huh: and praying :pray: ... and praying :pray: and thinking :thinking: ... about some of things you have said and how you are reasoning ... you asked me certain questions and some of them I didn't get an opportunity to try to explain as I wanted to try and think about them for a while ... as well I was busy and knee deep in researching ... but I decided to try to get back to you today ...:giverose:

I will use your quotes in light blue and my answers will just be in the regular color ok ... hopefully it won't be too confusing to follow ...:funnyface:

Anyway ... here goes to my trying to answer some of your comments ... this may prove a bit long ... but you did have a lot to say on this subject so hopefully you may forgive me for being a wee bit verbose this time ... :P

I wouldn't say MUST. Possibly. I believe George Washington was real, but I don't believe the story about the cherry tree.

Here your 'reasoning' that just because YOU believe that the 'cherry tree' story 'isn't true ... doesn't mean that is ISN'T does it ...? :dontknow: I didn't really know the story and so I looked it up ... and I personally can see that the 'story' COULD be true ... For example ... in life many things happen to us that we learn from and later tell 'stories' about to show other lessons we may have learned along the way ... good or bad ... in the hopes of teaching others perhaps ... whether it be our children or people in general would you not agree ...?

So to use this analogy to say that that just because 'George Washington' was REAL ... but the 'story' he told IS NOT ... doesn't seem to be a 'fair' illustration to use in saying that just because Adam and Eve may be REAL people ... the 'story' about the garden of Eden is just a 'story' ... just doesn't ring true to my way of thinking anyway ... :huh:

Later you make this statement ...

But that is working at this backwards. First we figure out what the story means, and then we are free to discuss the historicity of it.

Then a little later on you say ...

I agree that it could be so. I acknowledge the possibility. But that is not the only explanation. My belief is that if a literal interpretation works, there is no need to come up with a symbolic one.

Perhaps I'm just not 'getting' it ... :shocked: but IMHO these two statements don't seem to 'fit' together ... they seem rather contradictory to me ... :huh::dontknow:

On the one hand you are saying that we NEED to find out what is MEANT and then go on to seeing if it is 'historic' or not ... and THEN you say they is NO NEED to find out what is 'meant' (symbolically being a similar idea to 'meaning') just TAKE IT as being 'LITERAL' if it 'works' ... and not to bother with the rest ...

You said ...

Either God decided to make humans in such a way so as not to die, or he made them as he made everything else and then planned to give them the gift of everlasting life as a bonus.

I think it was the latter. Why? Because all physical life deteriorates.

So my thinking is that God made us as everything else, but planned to give us the special gift of eternal life in the heavens as a way of offsetting our physical limitations.

When I thought about this reasoning I think you have made your conclusions based on information that we know NOW ... and NOT on the way it was BEFORE man fell into disobedience and sin ...

How do YOU ... "KNOW" that ALL PHYSICAL LIFE DETERIORATED in the Garden of Eden ... does the Bible SAY that it did ...? Even if the animal world died does NOT necessarily follow that HUMANS ... made in God's image ... and God doesn't die ... had to die as well ... for THEN we are putting LIMITATIONS on God ... and that is something I personally would not want to do as the Bible says that WITH GOD ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE ... so if he wanted Adam and Eve and their offspring to LIVE FOREVER then he could so ... it was ONLY AFTER they would have rebelled that DEATH came to be mentioned in regards to them ... so if their punishment was DEATH their reward would have be LIFE ... isn't it that simple ...?

You said ...

I suggested above that this was because the snake ate from the tree of knowledge. I can't prove this, however, because it is only implied. Nevertheless, it seems more reasonable than adding in someone else to the "cast of characters."

By "natural death" I mean physical death by the natural process of our physical bodies wearing out. It is natural because I believe that's how we were created in the very beginning.


How is it 'implied' that the snake at the fruit ... NO WHERE have I seen this 'implied' in even a lose manner ... so how can you 'assume' ... it doesn't seem reasonable to me ... as to 'death being a natural process' ... I agree with you that NOW the 'process' that our IMPERFECT bodies go through is breaking down process that leads eventually to death ... but just because we do that NOW doesn't mean that that is how Adam and Eve were created ...

To me this is an important point ... to KNOW about whether Adam and Eve were created perfect with eternity as humans as their future ... for then that would show why their sinning and the results on us today was so terrible ... and why God's own Son had to be sent to FIX the DEVASTATING EFFECTS of what they did ...

To BUY BACK what Adam had LOST ...

You asked ...

I think either is possible, though I am not sure how someone talks "through" something. You'll have to explain that one a little better.

Let's look at 'technology' today as an 'example' ... today humans can 'talk through' a telephone, radio, walkie talkies,television computers and so on ... does that mean that they BECOME what they are 'talking through' or it is just a TOOL to be used to 'communicate' THROUGH ... If 'humans can do this ... then the 'god of this system of things' ... a POWERFUL being should be able to do the same ...

Also, we have many accounts in the gospels of the demons talking THROUGH HUMANS to Christ Jesus ... using them ... their 'bodies' as a conduit to speak to the son of God ...

So, why is it so hard to fathom that Satan used the serpent to speak to Adam and Eve ...? :dontknow:

You also said ...

For the moment, let's say that you are right that Satan made it look like the snake was speaking. If it were important for us to know this, don't you think it would be written down? Since it isn't, would you agree with me that it is not important for us to know this fact?

I think someone picked up a pen, and under inspiration wrote down everything that he wanted to say. Maybe that fundamental belief is the ground of our difference of opinion.

1) The verse says that Satan IS the original serpent, not that he used the serpent, or posed as a serpent, or opened the mouth of a serpent, or whatever.

Now as you say here is where we DIFFER ... for I DO think it IS written down for us ... it is just whether we can 'see' it or not ...

Then you quote from the Scripture at Rom. 12:9 ...

9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.

As you like to be so 'specific' and 'accurate' as to WORDING of Scripture ... it DOESN'T say the word ... "IS" ... but rather ... "THE" ... and it also using 'the' when it DESCRIBES him as 'the great dragon' ... these creations came to be 'identified' WITH the Devil ...

Obviously, Satan ... 'IS' ... NOT a 'dragon' or a 'snake' or 'lion' and so on ... things that REAL ... but rather that people identify with as to what personality and qualities the Devil HAS ...

A snake is known to be 'cunning' and 'crafty' ... and so are some of the qualities of the Devil ... so the 'snake' was an apt creature for him to use wouldn't you think ...? However, he COULD have used another creature to speak through if he wanted to ... he just chose this particular one for if it was small it no doubt had to learn how to survive among the bigger creatures around it ... (and yes I know you will that is 'supposition' but in YOUR words ... 'it seems reasonable' ... ;) )

You said ...

I don't think that Jehovah conveyed his thoughts to the writers of the Bible in such a way that they didn't know what they were writing. I think he revealed a point to them, they understood it, and wrote it down in their own words. They would not have been able to write it down in their own words if they didn't understand it.

To ME the idea of INSPIRATION denotes that if the words were written FROM JEHOVAH ... then it wouldn't matter if they understood or not ... Jehovah GAVE THEM THE WORDS ... and they wrote it down ... it is as 'simple' and yet 'complex' as that ...

Yes the HOLY SPIRIT ... the means that men WROTE and SPOKE by that were inspired to do so ... isn't limited to OUR IMPERFECT comprehension ... it gave what was needed and then it was done ...

I can remember ... speaking from personal experience ... feeling 'inspired' to write things ... and later ... when I went back and read what I wrote ... I couldn't remember how I could have written what I did ... and sometimes even why ... it just was ... is that not the idea being 'people being 'inspired' ...? (not sure if this is a really good illustration or not but hopefully you will get the point)

You said ...

If Adam and Eve passed on the knowledge of good and bad to their children, then so presumably would the snake. However, do you not think it is possible that when God cursed the snake, making it lower than all the other beasts, that its knowledge would be taken away too. If God did not take away the ability to speak, then it could not have been the lowest of the animals.

Now the snake was more subtle (or clever or wise) than any other creature of the field that YHWH God had made (Gen 3:1).

Here again you are making PRESUMPTIONS of FACTS though NOT IN EVIDENCE ... and thus any CONCLUSIONS and/or ARGUMENTATIONS would have to be 'flawed' if the 'premise' is flawed wouldn't it ...?

The reason I say this ... is because if you think as you do that the snake was a 'literal' snake ... then it would have human reasoning capabilities ... something that Jehovah ONLY gave to his HUMAN creation ... and to say that 'just because' they were cursed lower than all the other beasts would 'have' to indicate that its SPEECH would have to be taken away as well ... well again this is all 'assumption and speculation' for it ISN'T WRITTEN anywhere ...

Now ...

On the OTHER hand ... if the snake was being used by a superior being ... one that COULD reason and USE another ... then we CAN see God 'cursing that one' ... that IT (the being) would most CERTAINLY HAVE KNOWN about the 'tree of knowledge of good and bad' ...

So ... here we have to reason out ... and I have to go back to the 'swine' ... remember the account at Matt. 8:28-32 ...28 When he got to the other side, into the country of the Gad·a·renes′, there met him two demon-possessed men coming out from among the memorial tombs, unusually fierce, so that nobody had the courage to pass by on that road. 29 And, look! they screamed, saying: “What have we to do with you, Son of God? Did you come here to torment us before the appointed time?” 30 But a long way off from them a herd of many swine was at pasture. 31 So the demons began to entreat him, saying: “If you expel us, send us forth into the herd of swine.” 32 Accordingly he said to them: “Go!” They came out and went off into the swine; and, look! the entire herd rushed over the precipice into the sea and died in the waters.

... the 'literal snake' suffered because of what was done to it by another ... and the ONE ... Satan ... DID have knowledge ... knowledge that USED to the DETRIMENT of Adam and Eve ... he TWISTED and MISLED by partial truth and manipulation ... something he CONTINUES to do right down to today ...

Well ... I will post this for now ... so it isn't TOOOOOOOOOOO long ... although you asked me some other stuff as well which I will post after I put this up ... :post:

Okee dokee ... ;) :siskiss:

Christian love as always ... BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:

Hi there Wolfie ...:hug:

the question should be .. was the creature made with GODs spirit right from the beginning or was it something that GOD offered to His creation at a later point in time ...

If the creatures, beasts, creaping things, trees and grass, fish and sea monsters that GOd created in the first 5 days represent people, nations and kingdoms then one can conclude that the Man in His image, the one with His spirit ( qualities ) was not brought about until He took of some Soil ( earth or nation ) and made Himself known.

The bible speaks of GOD being fond of His creation ... but it also states that He hates the beast and it's fleshly desires.
So what would be the reasonable thing to do ...

What if GOD showed His creation how to be more like Him ... taught him higher qualities and a cleaner ( righteous ) way .. one that would elevate this individual above all other creatures...

You asked why not just make everyone an angel .... because angels know Good and Bad, but they have no test to take to show their loyalty or love ... they have been created to serve GOD and that is their sole purpose ....

But if He could take of mankind, someone who had been without GOD ( in pits of darkness ), and show Him the Father ( His creator ) and the qualities of love, then this individual would be able to choose between the darkness and the light... ( between the creatures knowledge or the true Spirits ) .. and be able to prove their love for their creator because of free will ... having a choice .

Adam chose the darkness and went back to where He came from ... the soil or condition that He previously had... ( He went back to His vomit ) to the ways of the creature ... one without GOD and His righteousness.

And so Sin entered into this world ... ( Adam having had the knowledge of the true GOD.. spirit .. and rejecting it )

This is the unforgivable Sin .. one that causes spiritual death... because without GODs spirit within .. one is dead in His eyes and since Christ made His Father known to us, there is no more room for deception ... We all know better, don't we, since we know what it is like in the darkness, in the pits of despair .... life without GOD in our hearts and minds..

Donot go back to your previous life ... to the things of the nations ... to the governments ( heavens above you ) to a life without GOD... but in all things have Him infront of you, behind you and on your side ... keep your eyes focused on Him and you will farewell...

and as always, this is just mho ...

with love and affection, LC :heartbeat:

Hi Aurora

Re: "because angels know Good and Bad, but they have no test to take to show their loyalty or love ... they have been created to serve GOD and that is their sole purpose ...."

How do you explain this scripture:

"And the angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place..." (Jude 1:6...)

Is this not a reference to Genesis 6:2...

"...then the sons of the [true] God began to notice the daughters of men, that they were good-looking; and they went taking wives for themselves, namely, all whom they chose. After that Jehovah said: “My spirit shall not act toward man indefinitely in that he is also flesh. Accordingly his days shall amount to a hundred and twenty years.”

The Neph´i·lim proved to be in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of the [true] God continued to have relations with the daughters of men and they bore sons to them,..."

Only after Jehovah had created everything and pronounced it good; did corruption (spiritual/moral) enter into His creation via the Wicked Spirits lie to he first human couple (and spirits forsaking their proper place). Then Jehovah felt: "And Jehovah felt regrets that he had made men in the earth, and he felt hurt at his heart." (Genesis 6:6...)

gogh

Hi again ... :hibye: I'm still in the 'zone' ... in trying to answer some of your comments ... I will follow the same idea as above with YOU in BLUE and me in 'regular' ... ;):giverose:

You said ... on more than one occasion ... so I too will reiterate ...

Notice how the status of the snake changes. In verse 1, it is the most intelligent of the animals. In verse 14 it becomes the most cursed of all the animals. I would argue that loss of speech accompanied the loss of intelligence.

To me you cannot PROVE this by SCRIPTURE ... Other animals are ‘intelligent’ as well … and are so today … as you so often say … and is in your quote … to say that you …” would argue that loss of speech accompanied the loss of intelligence.” … is to GO BEYOND what is written in God’s Word is it not … for NO WHERE does it say that the snake had the ability to talk BEFORE it spoke to Adam and Eve … so for us to say that it did before the temptation of Adam and Eve is reading more into the Scriptures than they say ... something I'm pretty sure you said we shouldn't do :read: :huh: ... right ...?

You said ...

It's reasoned out. Here are the indications:

1) The Bible explicitly says that the snake was intelligent (3:1).

I agree with you that the snake was intelligent ... but what is the 'actual' wording of this Scripture (the pertinent part at the beginning) ...?

3 Now the serpent proved to be the most cautious of all the wild beasts of the field that Jehovah God had made.

and to use a translation closer to your rendering ...

(GW) The snake was more clever than all the wild animals the LORD God had made.

Now, when you read this ... DOES IT say the OTHER animals WERE NOT intelligent ...? Or does it just say that the 'serpent' was 'MORE clever' than the others ...? They would have to be 'intelligent' to some degree or how could they survive ...?

I see nothing that would make the 'snake' creature really stand out as being 'set apart' in some HUGE way as you seem to think ...


2) The Bible explicitly says that the snake was better than all of the other animals because of its intelligence (3:1).

I don't think that being 'MORE CUNNING' ... another meaning of the word ... (the word used here for 'wise' or 'clever' by the way ... isn't really a POSITIVE word is it ... as it is usually used in a negative sense ...) necessarirly makes it BETTER than the other animals ... it is just stating the 'personality' or the 'makeup' of the serpent ...

In other words one could say that in a classroom of kids, for example, some are more 'intelligent' than others ... they all have the 'same abilities' in people ... talking, walking, eating, sleeping ... whatever ... but some have MORE ability in these or some of these areas than others ... that doesn't make the 'more average' lesser in anyway ... at least not to me ...

3) The Bible explicitly says that the snake could talk (3:2).

I have no problem with acknowledging that the snake was talking ... it is just WHEN did it begin to do so ...? Which Scripture says that it did so BEFORE talking with Adam and Eve and tempting them to be disobedient from a command that God had given them ...?

Clearly, the snake's speech is evidence of its intelligence. Wouldn't you say? None of the other animals could talk. The snake could. So that is at least one way it was more clever than them.

First of all, I don't think it is CLEAR that 'intelligence' = 'speech' ... that is something YOU yourself are concluding ... however ... taking your 'formula' as ... 'intelligence' ='ing 'speech' ... then since ALL THE OTHER ANIMALS who were ALSO INTELLIGENT ... MUST have 'spoken' as well ... just maybe not as 'intelligently' as the serpent ... ;)

4) The Bible explicitly says that God told the snake it would become lower than the rest of the animals (3:14).

How could the snake become lower than the animals and retain its ability to speak? As long as it could speak, it would be better than the rest. It had to lose both its cleverness and its speech.

'EXPLICITLY' huh ;):thinking: ... in WHAT WAY does the Bible say that the 'snake' would become 'lower' ...? Was it in its 'thinking or speaking' ability ... or in it a 'physical' sense ...?

All the Scripture says in Gen. 3:15 is ...

(ESV) The LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, cursed are you above all livestock and above all beasts of the field; on your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life.

To me ... if you take these words AT FACE VALUE ... reading into it WHAT IT SAYS ... 'literally' ... then ALL it is saying is that the snake would now crawl on its belly ... and in the animal kingdom snake-like creatures DO crawl on their bellies as they have no feet ... making them 'lower' than other animals ...

In earlier posts I argued that the snake got the ability to speak by eating from the tree of knowledge. It was expressed to me that this was highly speculative, and I now agree. More reasonable to me is the idea that God created snakes as intelligent creatures.

Here again I have no problem with the idea that snakes are 'intelligent' ... just as I have no problem with ALL the other animals being 'intelligent' as well ... :D

You said ...

the way that things are presented in Genesis, sin appears right away.

Well ...

What we SEE is that after Jehovah created man he pronounced them ... along with ALL his creation ... as being GOOD ...

Then we see some time going by when God and Adam developed their relationship as Father and Son ... to let them get to know each other better ... I feel this is a 'logical' thing to think as it is what he did with Christ Jesus didn't he ... so why wouldn't he do it with his 'other human son' as well as a loving Father...

For example we see 'Jehovah brought the animals to Adam to name' ... all of which would obviously have taken some time wouldn't it ...

Gen. 2:19 ...

19 Now Jehovah God was forming from the ground every wild beast of the field and every flying creature of the heavens, and he began bringing them to the man to see what he would call each one; and whatever the man would call it, each living soul, that was its name.

Obviously even the naming of the 'serpent' he would have 'watched' and 'observed' the manner in which it behaved so as to give it a PROPER and FITTING name ... and even today the behaviors of the snake fit the name that Adam gave does it not ...? For we see that the 'serpent's' qualities were NAMED BEFORE it spoke to Adam and Eve.

Well, that's about it ... I hope I explained myself clearly and understandably enough ... and that you can see why I 'reason' as I do ... There ARE Scriptures I could have used to back up certain points but I was trying to make it as 'short' as possible ...:whistle::siskiss:

Signing off for now ... luv BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:

Hi peeps!!
It seems to me that we humans strive to make a square peg, (what we already believe, or would like to believe), fit into a round hole (what the scripture says).

Instead of rationalizing that Satan used a serpent as a mouth piece, or that it was a real serpent that spoke, consider that Eve was speaking to Satan himself, materialized as a serpent-like creature, a
Nachash (Heb).
In Hebrew it can mean: snake / serpent or one who practices of divination. (one having wisdom, enlightened one)
The adjective form means “bright, brazen” and is itself the base word for other nouns in Hebrew, like “shining brass”. It literally means, "a shinning One" like a shinny snake, and so is a fitting word for Satan, who is referred also as a glorious spirit being elsewhere in the Bible, like Isa. 14:12.
Most of us are also familiar with EzK 28:14:

....“‘“You are sealing up a pattern, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 In E′den, the garden of God, you proved to be. Every precious stone was your covering, ruby, topaz and jasper; chrys′o·lite, onyx and jade; sapphire, turquoise and emerald; and of gold was the workmanship of your settings and your sockets in you. In the day of your being created they were made ready. 14 You are the anointed cherub that is covering, and I have set you. On the holy mountain of God you proved to be. In the midst of fiery stones you walked about. 15 You were faultless in your ways from the day of your being created until unrighteousness was found in you.

16 “‘“Because of the abundance of your sales goods they filled the midst of you with violence, and you began to sin. And I shall put you as profane out of the mountain of God, and I shall destroy you, O cherub that is covering, from the midst of the fiery stones.

17 “‘“Your heart became haughty because of your beauty. You brought your wisdom to ruin on account of your beaming splendor. Onto the earth I will throw you. Before kings I will set you, [for them] to look upon you.

This makes the curse more understandable also, that there will be enmity between Satan's seed and the woman's seed. What revenants would there be to a snakes literal seed.
Did this account historically happen? I now think yes, but using allegorical terms to describe it. To the early Jews, Eve was seduced by a Nachash, (translated Serpent). She had no idea who Satan was, and it was not till much later, that other scriptures identify that Nachash for us.
Perhaps the term serpent is not so allegorical after all. We just assume it could be, because we think that a serpent is a wild beast. But is a Nachash?

just to pick up on a few points here.

if Adam and eve were created to live forever why was the tree of life placed in the garden?
if they were already immortal beings why would they need to eat from the tree?

scripture tells us that they did need to eat from the tree of life to live
gen 3:22

" here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad
and now in order that he may not put his hand out and actually eat from the tree of life and live to time indefinite"
" with that jehovah God put him out of the garden of eden......."

so is it wrong to conclude that the tree of life and their eating from it was essential to their obtaining life to time indefinite?

so is it wrong to conclude that they were dying as physical and spiritual beings without access to the TOL?

Satan, who i believe scripture tells us was the serpent , he is described in scripture as the Original serpent, the manslayer and the father of the lie.
the physics of it i profess i do not understand why a serpent that talks etc.

but the intent was deception and it worked ,Adam and eve did die but they died because they could not access the tree of life!

Jehoavah had told them that they would die because he knew the penalty for breaking his command would be restriction from the tree
in other words death.

we today die because we do not have access to the tree of life
we gain access to the tree of life by following Christ who leads us to them
rev talks of the trees of life

rev22
" and on the side of the river and on that side there were trees of life producing twelve crops of fruit. yielding their fruits each month
and the leaves of the trees were for the curing of the nations"

so we are told of the importance of the tree of life
at the start of the human race we are banished from it and at the end of our banishment we regain access to it.

elihu

Hello the Gogh ....

I know that the following might not seem plausible but ...

This is a reference to those Sons of GOD who came from Adams loins ... not the spirit angels in a heavenly spiritual abode but the angels , sons of God in an earthly abode, who where in a higher possition then the rest of humanity.... compared to the kings who GOD choose and who took concubines and had harems ...

I have to get going right now but will try and make it back tonight and hope to leave some references.

with love, LC :heartbeat: