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When many of you were first associated with E-Watchman's Discussion Board, most were originally quite incensed at the Governing Body's secret association with the United Nations as an NGO. However, time has passed and some new ideas and feelings are now present among our group here that are very different from what Jehovah's Witnesses believe or were taught. Some among us now, even question whether the United Nations represents the "Wild Beast" of Revelation at all. Therefore based upon the above, I have 2 questions.

1) How many of us PRESENTLY feel the Governing Body's secret affiliation with the United Nations for close to 10 years, should be scripturally viewed as a Great Sin in Jehovah's eyes?

2) How many PRESENTLY feel that it is scripturally wrong for christians to engage in politics on any level?

Thanks in advance for your participation. :)

agape,

Jah's Slave Girl

I do not get involved with politics, I do not vote, and try to stay out of the bashing that goes on.

Regarding NGO. I think the biggest problem is the coverup.

God bless

Hello :hibye: and a warm welcome to you Jah's Slave Girl ...:giverose:

Love your name ...

Whether or not the UN proves to be the image of the wild beast or not ... yes I think it is a SIN in Jehovah's eyes ...:rant:

It to me ... is on the same level as the Israelites going down to form aliances with Egypt ... something they were told NOT to do by Jehovah ...

Now, while Jehovah today hasn't 'told' us not to get a 'library card':funnyface: from the 'UN' ... we WERE told not to use the world to the full ... and since it ... the WORLD ... views the UN as the BEST HOPE for PEACE ... NOT looking to GOD'S KINGDOM ... for the answer ... I feel this is a BETRAYAL of our loyalties to Jehovah and a breaking of our neutrality ...

I think we are lot more 'calmer' ... the passage of time taking away the 'newness' ... but it doesn't take away the AMOUNT OF GUILT and the CONSEQUENCES for such actions ... ESPECIALLY in light of them not 'coming clean' ... but rather using slick and devious tongues and words to try to 'minimize' or cover over their sin ... and then making it even worse by punishing those who are JUSTIFIABLY 'upset' over it ...

As to engaging in 'politics' ... I don't vote if that is what you mean ... I keep my eye ... on what is happening ... although my 'eye' is as focused as some ... usually political stuff goes over my head ...

Interesting questions you asked ...

What are YOUR feelings on them if I might ask back ya ...:bouncy::giverose:

Looking forward to seeing more of you ... love BR:bouncyhearts:

Hello, I don't feel that being a NGO is a sin. The sin lies in what you do as an NGO. To the WT, the problem happens when the WT teachs that the United Nations is the "image of the wild beast" referred to in Revelation 13:1-18 and the fulfillment of the "disgusting thing that causes desolation" from Matthew 24:15.

From Wikipedia:In 1963 Jehovah's Witnesses adopted a Resolution establishing the official view of the United Nations. The Resolution was published in the November 15, 1963 issue of Watchtower. At 24 assemblies held throughout the year, a total of 454,977 convention attendees adopted the Resolution.

Regarding the United Nations, paragraph 5 of that resolution states, "the nations further refused the surrender of their sovereignty to God’s Messianic kingdom by setting up ... the United Nations, ....This international organization stands for world sovereignty by political men. For years men without faith in God’s kingdom have endeavored to get all people to worship this international image of human political sovereignty as the best hope for earthly peace and security, in fact, the last hope for humanity. To date 111 nations have given worship to this political image by becoming members of it. However, we, as witnesses of the Sovereign God Jehovah, will continue refusing to engage in such idolatrous worship..."

Therefore the WT condemns any association with UN whatsoever considering it idoltrous worship, yet itself associated with the UN for 10 yrs. Again from Wikipedia: In a letter dated August 4, 2004, the UN website explains the association it had with the Watchtower Society: "By accepting association with DPI, the organization agreed to meet criteria for association, including support and respect of the principles of the Charter of the United Nations and commitment and means to conduct effective information programmes with its constituents and to a broader audience about UN activities."

The WT association with the UN was hypocritical at best given the JW stance. The WT (and by this I mean the GB) sinned when they denied such association and drowned further in sin when they systematically df-ed anyone who publicaly voiced his/her concerns over it.

The NGO status is what gives many humanitarian organizations immunity from gov dangers in many developing and underdeveloped countries. The problem I have is that if an organization thinks UN involvement under any circumstance a sin and considers it idoltrous worship, but chooses to deliberately engage in this sin for convenience is horrible, then when they are caught in the act, instead of apologizing humbley, to be arrogant and throwout innocent brothers and sisters to cover up wrong doing is evil.

To lie is a sin, to deceive and deliberately misrepresent your self is a sin. To be a hypocrite is also a sin...Christians are to remain "without spot from the world" :borg:

Loyalty, where did you find that in Wikipedia
??:read:

Further to your comments Loyalty...

The "Draw close To Jehovah" book published by the WTBT Society says...

"The clergy of Christendom may think that they are being reasonable when they tickle the ears of their flocks by watering down Jehovah’s moral standards. (2 Timothy 4:3) But the human tendency to compromise for the sake of expediency has nothing to do with divine reasonableness. Jehovah is holy; never will he pollute his righteous standards. (Leviticus 11:44)

(Leviticus 11:44..." For I am Jehovah YOUR God; and YOU must sanctify yourselves and YOU must prove yourselves holy, because I am holy....")

Christian love,

gogh

My take on the UN deal is about like what is stated above.

I would just add that the WT actually condemned other religions for their association with the UN, and on decades of occasions.

Jesus stated 'with the same judgment you judge others, you yourself will be judged.'

As far as involvement in politics, I am not at all sure that they were really involved in "politics" per se, but rather, taking the absolute "high road" possibly they were truly trying their best to assist brothers and sisters in difficult lands and circumstances. Possibly they felt that the acceptance by the UN would give them STATUS that they needed to help brothers in those lands.

My upset with them is over their arrogance. If they want to explore a path that takes them into a position they formerly condemned, they should have made the case for that action. Let the chips fall where they may.

However the Library Card defense, as far as I am concerned, placed them in the category of evil liars, which I think is worse than political involvement could ever be. They were evil liars because they acted like they had done no wrong, and they disfellowshipped my wife and I and possibly hundreds or more of others who had years of agreement and support of them.

Its a little like the Garden of Eden, re: the library card defense. There are plenty of libraries in New York, and around the world. Adam and Eve had plenty of trees to gather food from, yet they picked the ONE tree that Jehovah forbade.

Why would you sell your (claimed) birthright for such an insignificant thing. Its worse than what ESAU did.

When I realized what they had done, and wrote them several times to try to reason the issue fully with them, in hopes they would repent, (fat chance) and then they turned the judicial comittee on my wife and I, I realized that this couldn't be the 'Truth', rather a bunch or power crazed jerks that would lie to me for any reason they wanted about anything they wanted to lie about.

I reject them, and I reject their teachings. I hate them for the 45 years they have stolen from my life under the pretense that they were Christ's Brothers.

I hate them for the scholarships I walked away from in 1964 to go to jail for neutrality, which neutrality they violated for a library card.

B---------------RANT

Hi E-magine, I googled Jehovah Un and the wikipedia article was the first response/link. The article is entitled Jehovah Witnesses and the United Nations. Click on the article's title to read it fully. Of course, the parts of the post in red are the parts I quoted from that article.

Salam, Lou

One more thing:

Gus has it right. He says that we are part of the problem too. I do have to say that I hate one more thing about this whole deal-----------------------

I am awful upset with myself for being such a dumb-___ and such a gullible jerk for my entire adult life.

I hate them for helping me make a fool out of myself.

B-----------------RANT

Greetings brothers and sisters, Jehovah's unending blessings to all:

Brant my dear brother, you said,

I am sure not only you and myself, but so many of us have very similar feelings of regret. The only thing that helps me, is that no matter how much time I wasted on believing the WTS, in earnest I know that all of us were in truth worshiping Jehovah and doing our utmost in serving him, of which I believe Jehovah knows.

Now, we have to go on, but not in regret, as we have to heal from the past. And if we do not, we play into the hands of Satan. Let us rejoice in that we have come to "true" light, which our Lord and King Christ Jesus has led us to.

And so my dear brother Brant, I am moved by your passion for truth, and for justice to be done, as it stirs my own emotions. But let us together rise to the wonderful quality of our Savior Christ who was the one who suffered evil of which none was found in him. He took our sins and beared the consequenses, and even said to love those of our enemies and to forgive them.

Please my dear brother Brant, do not think I am saying anything you don't already know, or to in anyway council you in the way of our Lord. With all my heart I know your sufferings and only want you to heal and be at peace just as we all need to be.

With all my Christian love to you my brother, brother Fred

Brother Brant-

Thanks for your comments! :)

Actually, my question was posed to find out how you personally feel about politics today.  In other words, do you think it is appropriate for Christians to participate in politics today?  Should we vote, run for office, campaign for others who are running for office, etc. etc.

How do you feel about that?

Thanks,
Jah's Slave Girl

I figured it was not from the Jehovah's Witness article on Wikipedia. I believe there are more than 1 full time brothers at Bethel guarding that page.

Make a change, its zapped faster than new light becomes old.

Many thanks for all of your comments!  :2cents:

Please keep them coming! :D

Jah's Slave Girl

A sin by whom?

The watchtower isn't a person. The governing body isn't a person. Jehovah deals with us as individuals...as real people. So where does the "sin" lie?

If you know of a lie...and choose to believe it...upon whom is the onus?

Politics?

Sorry, Watcher...we engage in politics every day of our lives. It's the way of the world. LOL...the kind of politics that makes the news (liberal, conservative, whatever...) is just a distillation of what everyone does everyday...and expects to be done officially (it's just that now, they hang a neat label on it).

"I hate them for helping me make a fool out of myself."


You should love them, Brant. I was a fool before...I am less a fool now. I celebrate the watchtower!

gus

I am not able to voice an opionion. as i had already left before they went against their own counsel..

To me the biggest "sin" is the fact that the simple truths are so abundant yet everyone always looked past them..  for stature, status, for a showing in front of others. that is why i left...
Those faithfull in what is least.. simple kindness, humilty, LOVE for your fellow man..  even when he hates you..  Standing up for what is right ...  without wavering..
Otherwise things are as they should be.. People who will listen will be drawn out..

I think I would vote..   If there was someone to vote for...  

Frank